Talk:Hellfire (Borderlands)
=Talk= Possible unseen reload speed buff? So far I've found 3 hellfires, but noticed a large discrepancy between the reload speed of each. Now given the number of lines of text the gun comes with naturally it would seems that something like this is on it but just bumped past the max lines shown of 5. Anyone else have any thoughts? If need be I guess I could always Fraps each of their reload animations. --Kylis 12:25, December 16, 2009 (UTC) :parts are random, some parts affect reload speed. The way some things are hidden is strange, when you change the manufacturer different things show up. For instance Tediore changes reload speeds, so its weapons will tell you what the bonus is, and it lists the total from all parts not just the Tediore mats. I guess Maliwan doesn't. please excuse me messing with your post. --Raisins 19:50, December 16, 2009 (UTC) ---- If you pick this gun up as a lvl 25, should you still keep it as you level (assuming you don't get another orange) or will a blue or purple higher level weapon eventually be a better choice? :It depends on your class and spec -- 17:08, December 7, 2009 (UTC) :Personally my Siren used a level 25 Hellfire (a good one with 3.9x scope and high fire rate of 12.5) and used it heavily for ~15 levels. I tried other weapons and always came back to the Hellfire. I actually found a level 34 along the way with worse scope, worse damage and worse fire rate than the level 25 model (due to body types etc.). My current mainstay weapon on Lilith is a level 43 Hellfire with 3.9x scope, ~125 damage, ~90 accuracy and a 55 round drum magazine. The only elemental guns that compare for me are the high end Pestilent Defilers with scopes.--Wang Foolio 20:50, December 9, 2009 (UTC) ---- Best SMG in the game?I heal if you shut it 20:51, November 5, 2009 (UTC) :(IMO) This thing is far from the best smg in the game. I still believe that the double anarchy will always have it beat. It has no elemental effect chance meaning it will be able to be used in any and all situations. It can also be used at med-close range. The ability to fir 4 bullets rapidly also makes it very useful for when you need to get a second wind on the ground and an enemy is up close. -- Someone (Use sigs next time) ::"the double anarchy will always have it beat". On which planet? Not Pandora. Lets break it down, eh? ::--Ammo Consumption-- :::Blatant fail for the Anarchy line. Not only do A's blaze through ammo at double the normal rate, they have to do all their damage directly. Hellfires can knock off a fraction of an opponents life with direct fire and move to the next target, knowing their previous victim will shortly be a pile of ash. ::--Clip Size-- :::It looks like the Anarchy comes out on top... or does it? You basically need to divide that number by two... at which point its a win-some/lose-some case by case basis. Call it "break even". ::--Range-- :::Anarchy's accuracy: Upper 20s to lower 30s for A's Hellfire's accuracy: upper 70s to low 90s. And you don't need to know about stupidly vast quantities of recoil. The more accurate Hellfire can successfully engage targets at sniping range. The more accurate Anarchy's at sniping range can waste a lot of ammo. ::--Defense-- :::Anarchy requires that you be exposed to your target until you kill it. :::Hellfire lets you fire off a shorter burst and duck back behind cover. ::--Damage Per Second-- :::Anarchy's DPS is quite good at point blank, and drops sharply outside it. Lets crunch some numbers... :::The best Anarchy listed (purple, level 43) works out to 5900 (118 x 4 x 12.5) DPS. That's really impressive, given that all 4 bullets are landing (so they're in melee range). This Anarchy will have to reload in under 2 seconds. Don't expect that to work out past 5 meters, particularly with the recoil that thing will be putting out. :::The best hellfire? A level 45 instance listed above does 1850 (148 x 12.5) bullet dps, a rate they can sustain for over 4 seconds before needing to reload. If we guess that the burn damage lasts for 5 seconds, it means each bullet will add 148*4/5 DPS... 118.4 DPS per bullet over the next 5 seconds. After firing the entire clip (which takes just under 4 seconds), the DPS when that last round was fired will be: 118.4 * 55 = 6512 from the fire, plus the original 1850 from the bullets, for a grand total of 8362. I suspect the Hellfire would catch up while the anarchy was reloading. :::But that all assumes point blank range where every round strikes its target. Not very realistic. Hellfire's superior accuracy will grant it greater bullet-only DPS against distant/covered targets. ::--VS Flaming enemies-- :::This is the only place where the Anarchy wins, and even then only at shorter ranges. ::--VS Shielded enemies-- :::Anarchy fails less here, at least until that shield goes down. Against Eridians, the effectiveness stays pretty level until they're dead. Against bandits or crimson lance? Meh. Once that shield goes down, it's back to fail-ville for the Anarchy. ::In conclusion: Anarchies are great point blank weapons that can easily take the place of a shotgun. Hellfires are great weapons that can take the place of just about everything. Some situations (point blank DPS against low-health targets) show the Anarchy to be superior, but you'd better bring a LOT of ammo. ::--Feel the BURN! 23:48, December 2, 2009 (UTC) :::Jesus Christ! We need you to do this more man!--Saphireking65 01:38, December 3, 2009 (UTC) ::Addendum: Another thing to point out--namely the point made that the Double Anarchy really shines when you're trying to get a second wind. From experience, I can say that I've seen few weapons work better for getting a second wind than the Hellfire. The high fire DoT often kills an enemy before I even have a chance to realize that I've been put down. Additionally, I've noticed that some enemies have a tendency to walk away or run behind cover after dealing crippling damage to a player--severely limiting the effectiveness of short-to-medium range weapons. With the Hellfire, on the other hand, you have the ability of igniting an enemy with a single connecting bullet, or spraying out bullets and igniting as many foes as possible in the hopes of just one burning to the ground for a second wind. --Orangemason 00:21, December 13, 2009 (UTC) Gebraheel 17:46, December 14, 2009 (UTC) :I picked up a level 25 purple TD22 Double Anarchy, So honestly, I'll keep my DVL390 Hard volcano for my fire damage (Being the sniper I am) and I'll keep my double anarchy for things mid to close range. I see the logic behind wanting a hellfire over an anarchy.... if you can't find a better fire elemental weapon... but then again, that's not hard. :::holy shit... that guy just got obliterated. but yea, i just got me one of these and it made me the happiest pyromaniac in existence :3 i also have a hyperion double stinger which i use when theres flaming things. eats thru ammo like a fat kid on cupcakes (even with +20 ammo regen) but it gets the job done too, in a hail of bullets type of way. Sniper Scyt 06:07, December 9, 2009 (UTC) :using lilith with maxed mind games you can sit safely at close range of many bosses in the game and just strafe around them unloading a double anarchy into them. you will get much faster boss kills that way on many of them over using the hellfire. --same guy that originally responded :using the hellfire is better for standard situations of killing enemies at medium to long range and having to deal with multiples where you can get them burning and switch, but for short range fighting with a high life boss type while you have a constant daze up the double anarchy does win for pure killing speed. --same guy that originally responded :ps - why is he talking about ammo when a mercenary mod with ammo regen makes it pointless? --same guy that originally responded :seems like he just wants to flame to me. both weapons have their places they shine, no need to go into some page long flame fest because he touched your weapon in a naughty place. --same guy that originally responded ::lol they both have advantages and disadvantages, but double does eat thru ammo. tho, not quickly enough to make ya run out. that is of course you're shooting for 5 minutes or less, you should rune out completely at 10-12 minutes even with ammo regen. i should porbably test that though, idk how long it takes for it to eat all the ammo, would have to find a x4 though. but that depends too, is yours the kind that gives two free bullets or fires 4 bullets at once? Sniper Scyt 23:16, December 13, 2009 (UTC) ::::::::::PS USE A SIGNATURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Sniper Scyt 23:16, December 13, 2009 (UTC) ::Lilith with Mind Games (level 5, 25% of Daze) and a weapon with a RoF above 4rps means a given enemy is gonna stay dazed. 12.5 or 50, it doesn't really matter The DA will almost certainly get the first daze in before any other gun, but lots of weapons out there could keep an enemy "under". ::Ammo burn rate: 12.5 x 2 = 25 rounds per second / 1440 round dark orange SDU = 58 seconds of continuous fire. In my experience, ammo regeneration isn't all that fast, around 1 round per second at "+10". If we assume 2 rounds/second at +20, you're still burning through ammo at 23 rounds/second, meaning it'll take 1440/23 = 62.6... seconds. About a minute either way. That ignores reload time entirely, which would slow the average RoF depending on clip size & reload speed. ::Hey, there's a new "best anarchy" listed on the DA page. 135 x 13.8 x 4 = 7452... though I suspect (given the odd RoF and huge clip) that this is "post skills/mod" stats. I wonder which (or even if any of them) stats listed are like that. Lets ass-u-me not. And with the 82 round clip, it needs to be reloaded after 2.97 seconds. Not bad at all. I doubt there's a shotgun around that could top that. ::(checks various discussion pages) ::The Matador might manage it. There's a level 36 matador listed that does 270 x 12 x 1.6 = 3264. One 14 levels higher might come close (but it'd still have a 2 round clip). ::As might the Hammer, thanks to its blast damage and relatively high RoF. Best: 160 x 7 x 2.4 = 2688, at level 46, and it has a x2 blast effect, though they can have x3. If we assume it procs about 25% of the time, that gives it an averaged DPS of 4704. ::Or the crux? 124x7x1.9 = 1649... Meh. even if its x4 corrosion procs half the time, it won't come close the the best Hellfire. ::Conclusion: Point blank, Double Anarchy has the best initial DPS in the game. However, your statement was "I still believe that the double anarchy will always have it beat". Not even remotely true, unless you consider "always have it beat" to mean "always at point blank", and I certainly didn't take it that way. That is why I replied as I did, to prove just how wrong your blanket statement was: :::Over a period of longer than 3-4 seconds, the hellfire has better DPS. :::Over a distance, ditto. :::If you care about ammo, ditto. :::If you like to hear your enemies shriek in agony as they die, ditto. >:) :::At point blank in under 3-4 seconds, the DA wins. :::Against fire-proof enemies, ditto, but only out to medium range, at which time the HF's superior accuracy takes over again. :::Against enemies immune to DoT (Rakk Hive, The Destroyer), DA again (within range). Also, Spiderants seem to "get over" the DoT faster than normal, though I haven't sat down with a stop-watch or anything. ::--I love the smell of NapalmEnima in the morning! 20:14, December 14, 2009 (UTC) Hellfire versus DA part 2: Fire Elemental Enemies Against fireproof enemies the DA wins regardless of the range, because if you're honestly using a hellfire versus a DA against ANYTHING with a fire element you need your head checked, you'll spend twice the ammo taking out the fireproof enemy trying to rely on the damage of the hellfire's rounds alone *not to mention the reduced damage overall considering about half the damage from a round is it's elemental properties if not more*. :Lets take some of your math here :The best Anarchy listed (purple, level 43) works out to 5900 (118 x 4 x 12.5) DPS. :5900.... not bad :The best hellfire? A level 45 instance listed above does 1850 (148 x 12.5) + Burn Damage (148*4/5)118.4 DPS per bullet (BLAH BLAH BLAH some more math) = Grand total of 8362. Lets subtract the 118.4 x 55 (that's the dps from the fire) 6512 8362 - 6512 = 1850/2 *because half your bullet damage is still fire elemental and they're IMMUNE* = 925 *that's ALL 55 rounds hitting* I don't know about you but even 1 in 4 bullets hitting from a DA is still 1475, and I can guarantee with an accuracy boost from a mod, a partner, or even chance will tell you that unless you're trying to hit a RAKK in flight halfway across the salt flats, you're gonna hit more than 1 in 4. SO, while I agree that against most enemies (fire elementals aside) the Hellfire pretty much has the upper hand (outside of accuracy boosted mordecai hands that is) over the DA almost any day of the week. When you have one correct answer, don't assume that everything that follows will also be correct. Against fire enemies I could beat a hellfire with a level 1 plywood sniper. :Gebraheel 07:07, December 15, 2009 (UTC) ::First, your math is suspect. 1850 DPS / 2 gives you 925 DAMAGE PER SECOND. Clearly less than the DA at point blank, but again at some range the HF's superior accuracy will close the gap and pass it by. Even so, at that range you'll probably be better off with a sniper rifle. ::Are you sure about that "1/2 damage from the bullet" thing? Is this experimental data or something a dev has posted on their forums? Or is that another "brown number"? And if you have a legitimate level 1 plywood sniper that can manage 925 DPS, I'll eat my own feces. Sniper rifles, even great ones, really aren't that impressive in the raw-DPS department. ::In my experience, at even medium range some clusters-of-4 don't hit the target At All, and you'll occasionally get 2 or more. I estimate (brown numbers again) that it works out to less than 1 bullet per 4. At some range, that will be true. ::Furthermore, arguing the "vs flaming enemy" case is kinda silly. I never claimed that the HF was universally superior... that was (past tense I see) your deal, and flaming enemies are pretty rare, maybe 1% of what you'll face. It's pretty clear that a hellfire will be at its weakest there. Fortunately, we have up to 3 other weapon slots. Heck, one of them might even hold a DA (Lilith with a merc mod (SMG ammo regen) might carry nothing but SMGs, with different elemental effects) ::Arguing class mod bonuses or skills is a bit off-topic, but I'll play along. So what mods can help a DA vs an HF? :::Lilith ::::Firefly Ignite damage, big help for HF. ::::Merc SMG damage, helps both, elemental effect chance is pretty worthless to an HF, and the DA could use the ammo regen (more). ::::Tormentor team elemental effect damage (BIG help for HF) or team damage (helps both) ::::Mind Games, the DA benefits only slightly more from MG than the HF at point blank. ::::Slayer, HF benefits more due to its superior accuracy. ::::High Velocity, helps both equally :::Roland ::::Heavy gunner, helps both equally (clip size & weapon damage/rof) ::::Leader, team recoil reduction would probably benefit the DA more. ::::Support gunner, team ammo regen and team accuracy. BIG help to DA, quite nice for HF ::::Impact helps both equally ::::Stockpile helps the DA a bit more, but the ammo issue really isn't that big a deal unless you have no ammo regen in which case you'll be making more trips to the ammo dispenser. ::::Overload helps both equally :::Brick ::::Centurion's team magazine size helps both equally ::::Warmonger's team damage helps both equally ::::Rapid Reload helps both, a bit more to the DA due to recoil reduction. :::Mordecai ::::Ranger, team accuracy benefits DA more, team crit damage helps HF a bit more, team accuracy recovery helps DA a bit more ::::Survivor's team reload speed or team damage benefit both equally ::::Focus helps both, DA a bit more ::::Fast Hands reload helps both equally ::::Deadly helps the HF a bit more :::Anything that helps with accuracy or recoil will benefit the DA more than it does the HF, propping up its biggest weakness... not that the HF won't get even better, but the difference will be more noticeable with the DA. :::Anything that helps with elemental effect or fire damage (Lilith's turf) will help only the HF (and no, not against fire enemies). ::As long as we're talking "real world situations", how often do you run into enemies that are "meat" and take additional damage from fire? Over half the time? Lets say half. How often do you run into enemies that are fire-element endowed? Lets call it 5% of the time. ::So with an accuracy boost or two (weapon skill level, skills, and maybe a mod or two), the DA's effective range can be improved considerably. But an accuracy-boosting mod isn't boosting Something Else (Ranger vs Scavenger, or Leader's recoil vs ability cooldown). ::In my experience, HF > DA around 3 times in 4. Maybe that reflects a difference in our play styles. I'll hit my enemies from long range given the opportunity. Perhaps you prefer closer quarters, where the DA shines. ::--I love the smell of NapalmEnima in the morning! 19:49, December 15, 2009 (UTC) ---- Got all y'all beat. Just recently found lvl 48 HX 2 Combustion Hellfire, light orange, doing 168 damage, 88.9 accuracy, 12.5 fire rate, 28 clip, x4 incendiary(obviously). Being only a light orange, this is good news for anyone who wants an amazing hellfire, as there HAS to be better.-- 20:17, November 29, 2009 (UTC)dAC :good for you. -- 17:08, December 7, 2009 (UTC) :one i just got is pretty similar, less accuracy and power tho, tho it has that invisible fast-reload thing, is that common for these? Sniper Scyt 06:07, December 9, 2009 (UTC) 'High' vs 'Very High' elemental effect I have 2 hellfires atm, one says 'High Elemental Effect chance' and the other says 'Very High Elemental Effect chance'... is there a significant difference between the two? --Keltik 06:46, December 3, 2009 (UTC) :No, they will have 100% chance to ignite the target, regardless of what the stats say. --Saphireking65 07:26, December 3, 2009 (UTC) --one.beat.consumer 22:23, December 9, 2009 (UTC) :Yes, there is a significant difference. What Keltik was referring to is Hellfire's inherent chance to "ignite" the enemy, which means to apply the burn DoT; and all hellfires seem to have a 100% chance to do so. However, the "elemental effect chance" rate is a measurment of how often shot will be an instant elemental kill - corrode (facemelt), electrocute, explode, or incinerate (ash pile burn). I'm not sure the numbers behind the rating, but it means (other than on fire resistant mobs) that you will get more instant kills. A Hellfire gun, with a good rate of fire and a "Very high" elemental effect chance... is an amazing combo, and even with "High" you are still applying all four DoTs (x4 fire) in your first four bullets to hit (100% ignite chance). -T ::lol big thing short, what it means is it will set things on fire a lot, but there are bullets that explode in a bigger fire that instantly set things on fire. (try shooting one bullet at a time and you'll notice some of the bullets have a bigger fire than others, thats the elemental effect chance)Sniper Scyt 16:53, December 10, 2009 (UTC) --Gebraheel 02:29, December 11, 2009 (UTC) :Actually those elemental effects aren't instant kills. When you critically kill someone with an elemental weapon it shows those animations 100% of the time. Keltik was correct, the elemental effect chance is just that, the chance to apply the DoT elemental effect. Gebraheel 17:51, December 14, 2009 (UTC) ::EDIT: Sorry about that, I mispositioned the signatures, I thought the top part was a blank post and the first response was from Keltik. But yes, the hellfires *like the volcano snipers* have a 100% chance to apply the burning DoT. Honestly, other than to fill up space in an otherwise empty looking orange gun, there's no reason for the "high/very high chance" text in the weapon description. The hellfire having a 100% to apply it's elemental effect negates the need *why did the devs put it in* for a high/very high chance. ::no no, when i say get set on fire, i mean the npc gets the continuous time based fire damage, not die lol. and it does have 100% but the flames are smaller on most shots(with a small chance to set someone on fire), where as there are the larger, stronger ones have a 100% chance to set someone on fire. yet after re-reading everything, i'm sortof lost on whats being argued x-X Sniper Scyt 04:17, December 11, 2009 (UTC) BASICALLY, weapons like the Volcano and Hellfire are 100% chance to set ablaze, so the "elemental effect chance" indicator doesn't matter, it just comes with the incendiary weapon part. Nagamarky 11:48, December 15, 2009 (UTC) Accuracy is wrong. I'm not sure what the max is, but I had a Hellfire drop that was 92-93 accuracy, so it can get higher than what is listed here. :then raise the max, the weapons are completely random son no stats on this wiki are "wrong" they are just different. --Saphireking65 17:08, November 13, 2009 (UTC) We Don't Need No Water... This is a reference to "The Roof is on Fire" made by Rock Master Scott & the Dynamic Three in 1984. "Fire Water Burn" was made in 1992, so stop changing it because you don't listen to older music! --Saphireking65 17:08, November 13, 2009 (UTC) :theres also a newer version done by coal chamber as a cover of rock master scott's "the roof is on fire" -- :"Sway" :the roof the roof the roof is on fire :we don't need no water let the motherf***er burn :burn motherf***er burn :Dfareaper 18:10, December 5, 2009 (UTC) ::I know, and they took it from the old song, therefore it is a reference to the origional --Saphireking65 22:25, December 5, 2009 (UTC) hence why i said it was a cover of the original song but seeing as how not everyone listens to music from that era it is possible that whichever programmer put the descriptive text in is familiar with the newer song. gotta think multi-generational sometimes. im only 21 and im familiar with the original song, but not many people my age (give or take 5 years) are death from above--reapers never sleep XBL gamertag= Dfareaper 00:24, December 8, 2009 (UTC) Is my hellfire just wierd? i have a hellfire level 24 that is x4 explosive and deals a random element and its made by torque, damage in the 90s and 82 round mag high accuracy and rof, found it in a chest with 4 people :/ :Then It is either not a hellfire, or it is modded --Saphireking65 08:22, December 6, 2009 (UTC) Ammo Regeneration Could anyone actually post a screen of this gun with an ammo regeneration mod? --Iluf 16:49, December 8, 2009 (UTC) I <3 this gun I got one of these about 2/3 of the way through my first PT, and I'm still using it on my second. I find it's great for arena-type fights (circle of death, the boss in Sledge's safe house, etc.) where I find myself running around the room with something chasing me. Just turn around, give it a burst with the Hellfire, turn and sprint away. Rinse and repeat.--Luthiel 03:48, December 9, 2009 (UTC) Modded...I Think So Here's a post from someone in the www.borderlandsforums.com website under general discussion/Weapons and Items/Hellfire SMGS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I got a really cool one from a friend, completely hack free. 185 damage 97.5 accuracy (or somewhere around that) and 12.5 rof X4 fire elemental Update, found two others Hellfire Anarchy (i call it fields of Hades) 157x3 damage 00 accuracy 72.6 rof 10000+ burst and another one Hellfire (black) 261 95.5 16.5 infinite ammo (never reload) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I understand the 1st one but not the other two guns....what about you guys? --random guy :firstly, it said not to post anything below some point, which ur bellow (i would move this but i dont actually know how to), second, make an account and use a sig by typing in 4 ~'s, lastly, they all sound hacked, especially the last two, the first one because of the accuracy, i dont think smgs come in "accurate" unless its hyperion(tho hellfire's are maliwan i think) with some obscene accuracy boost. Sniper Scyt 22:19, December 9, 2009 (UTC) ::Agreed, hax. --Raisins 23:17, December 9, 2009 (UTC) Heres the website http://www.borderlandsforums.com/topic/974-hellfire-smgs/ also..sorry about the way my last post came out all messy Hellfire .vs Friendly Fire i have a lvl 47 hellfire that can kill a badmutha brute(lvl 48) in 30 secs and lvl 48 Friendly fire that can kill in 20--Katanacut 22:48, December 12, 2009 (UTC) :once again dont put stuff down here lol, and isnt friendly fire a fire shotgun? i think i had one a while ago, but it was kinda crappy, tho i'm still looking for a fire shotgun, cant seem to find a decent one though, what are the stats on yours? Sniper Scyt 23:21, December 12, 2009 (UTC) :Number Time again. The previous best bullet damage in the table here gives 1850 DPS (the current one clocks in at 2050: 164 x 12.5, about 10% better, but with half the clip size). The best Friendly Fire listed has a bullet DPS of 1512 (120 x 9 x 1.4), with a 6 round clip (have to reload in just over 4 seconds. Hellfires "proc" on every bullet at x4. I haven't seen any mention of the proc rate of a Friendly Fire. Even so, they're x2 or x3. Admittedly, the FF discussion page has much fewer entries, so it's entirely possible that your FF is better than anything listed there. :Same ranges? Could a class mod be boosting your shotgun's effectiveness but not the SMGs? A small clip/slow reload time can greatly reduce a weapon's DPS in the long term. If we assume all else is equal then I must conclude that your particular FF is Much Better than your particular HF... but I assert that this is the exception, not the rule. :--I love the smell of NapalmEnima in the morning! 20:14, December 14, 2009 (UTC) Hellfires in other Colors Some time ago i found a black Hellfire which is pretty powerful (HX 550 listed below). The RoF is insane. Its impossible to fire just one shot with a klick. Was a random enemy-drop as far as i can remember. Besides its power the really strange thing is its color. I never saw a black Hellfire before (and ever after). Now i wounder if there are more legit Hellfires in other colors than baby-blue. Anyone else has one? --Cocofang 19:38, December 14, 2009 (UTC) :Not exactly, but i do have a Dahl Stinger that has an insane RoF, at 16.8, pretty good for killing the Lance, burns through them. ''Nelo Angelo 9 '' 19:44, December 14, 2009 (UTC) =Variant Models= '''DO NOT PUT THINGS BELOW HERE, PUT THEM ABOVE THE CHART!!!